Which softshell material? [Archive] - Teton Gravity Research Forums Teton Gravity Research Forums > Gear > Tech Talk > Which softshell material? PDA View Full Version : Which softshell material? neck beard05-14-2013, 04:42 AMWhich material, or brand, provides a softshell which is most of all windproof, then very breathable at the expense of being not very waterproof? butterscotch05-14-2013, 09:03 AMgore windstopper. bbense05-14-2013, 10:53 AMWhich material, or brand, provides a softshell which is most of all windproof, then very breathable at the expense of being not very waterproof? Marmot DriClime windshirt. If you want something with less insulation, then Pertex might fit the bill. Although there seem to be a bunch of different pertex fabrics out there now. Dane105-14-2013, 11:41 AMWhy settle for any thing 2nd best? Seriously. Anything made of •Polartec Power Shield Pro fabric. Nothing else like it on the market...nothing. Bean05-14-2013, 12:35 PMgore windstopper. Not a softshell material. Big Steve05-14-2013, 12:55 PMBegs the definition of "soft shell." Lots of Windstopper stuff is marketed as "soft shell." Lindahl05-14-2013, 01:26 PMI prefer stretch-woven softshells for touring (and hardshells for most resort days). Most companies make proprietary ones. Schoeller is the expensive brand name - few companies pay for it these days. Look for nylon/polyester/spandex blends. Look at the description of the fabric to understand how much warmth it will add (look at fabric weight and any fleece backings). I prefer as lightweight as possible, since you can always add baselayers if it's cold. My favorite is the Outdoor Research Ferrosi. Though, for pants, on all but the warmest spring/summer days, I prefer the Outdoor Research Cirque, for durability reasons. Anything with Marmot M3 is usually good (i.e. Marmot Tempo). Arc'Teryx Gamma LT is good, as is Patagonia Simple Guide. The North Face also has some good ones, as well, but I'm not sure what they're called anymore. I do the breath test. If I can breath through the fabric, feeling some strong resistance, but not enough to feel a shortness of breath, then it's thumbs up for me. I'm looking for something more breathable than the Patagonia Houdini, for example (and something a LOT more breathable than the Marmot Driclime). Get the brand that fits the best. Why settle for any thing 2nd best? Seriously. Anything made of •Polartec Power Shield Pro fabric. Nothing else like it on the market...nothing. For reference, Polartec Power Shield Pro is 2 CFM, PowerShield is 5 CFM, most stretch-wovens are 10-15 CFM. The best windshirts are 5 CFM, most are 2 CFM and the worst are ~0 CFM. Power Shield garments have membranes, but the membranes are perforated. You're right, no one else makes anything like it. They are more weather resistant, as a result, but don't breath anywhere near as well as a stretch-woven softshell. I prefer stretch-wovens for jackets, adding a synthetic jacket when I need more warmth/blockage. I like PowerShield fabrics for pants when touring in nasty weather. I don't like it for jackets. For pants, it's usually not breathable enough for sunny days, or moderate temperatures. For jackets, it's usually not breathable enough unless the weather is REALLY bad. However, on those days, stretch-wovens also work just fine, so why own two softshells? If I was Alpine Climbing - i.e. not working as hard, then PowerShield might work, but for ski touring, it just doesn't work for me on the up. Too sweaty/non-breathable. BackcountryMike05-14-2013, 01:32 PMI like the schoeller fabric used by Mammut for their pants and jackets. I end up using them for winter and spring ski touring and for summer mountaineering. bbense05-14-2013, 05:27 PMI like the schoeller fabric used by Mammut for their pants and jackets. I end up using them for winter and spring ski touring and for summer mountaineering. Me too, but the OP is kinda asking for something both a) impossible b) different from a "real" soft shell garment. If it's windproof, it won't be anywhere near as breathable as most "soft shell" fabrics. FWIW, soft shell has been so over-used by marketers that it is essentially meaningless. All it really means these days is "not backed by Goretex Waterproof warranty". I said Dri-Clime windshirt because I think everybody should own one. Relatively cheap, incredibly versatile and works really well as a wind barrier/light insulation layer under more robust softshells like the Schoeller Dryskin jackets or a full on goretex jacket. neck beard05-14-2013, 06:48 PMThanks for all the suggestions. Recently I have been researching the design features I want (big pockets, pit zips etc) and thought I'd try looking at the problem from a technical material performance pov instead. I have a very well used Mammut windshell with Gore windstopper. It worked well, however being objective, it didn't breath so good at all when under an outer shell. I dropped 'waterproof' to reduce the impossibility of my question. I guess what I want is: - comfortable 'softshell' jacket which breathes well and blocks wind. Worn all the time as an outer layer when touring except when it is very windy, colder or snowing hard. It has to breath well when worn under a hardshell. No insulation needed at all. Mild maritime climate. <Marmott> I have a non-shell Marmott jacket from about 7 years ago which was sold as a re-release of their most popular jacket. It has thin insulation and is baggy and cheap in design. It doesn't breath, is not windprooof at all, certainly not waterproof. I have zero use for it other than walking the dog. It's intended mountain use mystifies me. Along with some similar era Marmott Precip material shells with a plastic feel to them, which leak... my house does not use Marmott any more, I don't even visit their site in my searches. Perhaps they have improved? XXX-er05-14-2013, 09:23 PMI do the breath test. If I can breath through the fabric, feeling some resistance, but not enough to feel a shortness of breath, then it's thumbs up for me. I just tried this with my windstopper arcterxy fury pants and they are hard to breath thru, I also tried it with my windstopper O2 jacket and they are much easier to breath thru brice61805-14-2013, 09:42 PMIt has to breath well when worn under a hardshell. Sounds like you need a good wool tech shirt or fleece of some sort. My favorite is Melanzana. Their soft shell could fit this bill too. It's not particularly wind proof, but it is a good balance between water/wind/warm. http://www.melanzana.com Their "hardface" is what most would consider a soft shell. Actually they say its a hybrid between fleece and soft shell, which is probably more apt, and sounds close to what you're looking for. neck beard05-14-2013, 10:02 PMI thought about things like that for their breathable qualities, but it needs to be a good windblocker, and fleeces/wools aren't (in my experience). Plus snow precip sticks to it. The hardface material is better, but has insulation. I don't want any at all, not even the slightest fleecy feel inside, which also rules out fleeces and wools. brice61805-14-2013, 10:27 PMSo basically you want a light hard shell? This has a bit of fleece, but not much and not in bad places. http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/mens-centrifuge-jacket.html A buddy had this and it was pretty sweet I thought. I have a marmot version and it is nice, but not as weather proof. Island Bay05-14-2013, 11:12 PMHa, I was just about to recommend the OR Centrifuge. I've had mine for a year now, and I love it. I bike in mine, ski on non-windy days, chop wood, run on cold winter mornings, sift about at home, walk the hound. Light precip is ok, but you don't want to be caught out in wet snow or real rain. It is very versatile and comfy, and it still looks good; slight pilling on the back of the sleeves. Zipper tabs are minuscule, but 2mm cordelette and some thick thread will fix that. FWIW, I'm 6'1 x 170 and mine is an M. Perfect/slim fit with a thin base layer. Will get another one in L if on sale for more layering options, and in order to not wear the other one out. So basically you want a light hard shell? This has a bit of fleece, but not much and not in bad places. http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/mens-centrifuge-jacket.html A buddy had this and it was pretty sweet I thought. I have a marmot version and it is nice, but not as weather proof. neck beard05-14-2013, 11:13 PMSo basically you want a light hard shell? This has a bit of fleece, but not much and not in bad places. http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/mens-centrifuge-jacket.html A buddy had this and it was pretty sweet I thought. I have a marmot version and it is nice, but not as weather proof. I guess so. Basically, a soft to the touch flexible breathable less weather resistant "hard: shell. Worn as an exterior most of the time except when weather worsens. Even if I find the appropriate material, I then need to find the color/pocket/pit zip specs I'm after. I've noted down the OR jacket, thanks guys. Plus the other suggestions. Lindahl05-14-2013, 11:52 PMI said Dri-Clime windshirt because I think everybody should own one. Relatively cheap, incredibly versatile and works really well as a wind barrier/light insulation layer under more robust softshells like the Schoeller Dryskin jackets or a full on goretex jacket. What do you feel the advantage of the Driclime is, over something like the Houdini? For that sort of garment, I'd rather have the Houdini, personally - packable size/weight being one of the major pros. Lindahl05-14-2013, 11:58 PMThanks for all the suggestions. Recently I have been researching the design features I want (big pockets, pit zips etc) and thought I'd try looking at the problem from a technical material performance pov instead. I have a very well used Mammut windshell with Gore windstopper. It worked well, however being objective, it didn't breath so good at all when under an outer shell. I dropped 'waterproof' to reduce the impossibility of my question. I guess what I want is: - comfortable 'softshell' jacket which breathes well and blocks wind. Worn all the time as an outer layer when touring except when it is very windy, colder or snowing hard. It has to breath well when worn under a hardshell. No insulation needed at all. Mild maritime climate. IMO, what you're describing is a stretch-woven softshell. It's not windproof, but you don't want windproof for this sort of thing. You want wind resistant. Anything windproof will not breath well enough - just a fact of life. I've used my softshells in a blizzard in -10F degree temperatures without problems. Yeah, you feel the wind through it, but when you're working hard, that's a good thing, not a bad thing - it keeps you from overheating, and immediately dries any sweat. You want something to block just ENOUGH wind for you to not get too chilled. This sort of softshell basically cuts breezes and light winds to nothing, and cuts alpine gusts to a breeze. Everyone says they want something windproof, and then they try a stretch-woven softshell and never look back. Don't worry about pitzips either. They don't make sense on this kind of a garment (no one has them anyway), because you want something that actually breaths all over (arms, back, neck, torso, abdomen, etc.). Honestly, I'm sure you're feeling a bit sketpical, but if you haven't tried one yet, then you don't actually know what you want. I don't bother with a hardshell jacket when touring anymore, either. If it's cold, a lightweight synthetic puffy goes on when I stop moving. You get to bring one less layer: bonus! I'd love to try an Atom LT for this layer, as I think it'd be PERFECT. However, those things are friggin expensive, and I already own a few synthetic puffies. I have a non-shell Marmott jacket from about 7 years ago which was sold as a re-release of their most popular jacket. It has thin insulation and is baggy and cheap in design. It doesn't breath, is not windprooof at all, certainly not waterproof. I have zero use for it other than walking the dog. It's intended mountain use mystifies me. Along with some similar era Marmott Precip material shells with a plastic feel to them, which leak... my house does not use Marmott any more, I don't even visit their site in my searches. Perhaps they have improved? I've tested over 20 different softshell jackets from various manufacturers (thanks bc.com!). Marmot has one of the most extensive list of softshell options on the market. I'd suggest looking at them again. I have the Marmot Tempo Hoody and the Outdoor Research Ferrosi, and the materials are VERY similar - the Marmot is a tiny bit thicker and more durable. I think the difference is double-weave versus single-weave. The Marmot Tempo material is almost identical to the Outdoor Research Cirque material, IMO. If I had to keep one, it'd be a tough call. I like how packable the Ferrosi is for summer skiing. I also like it's very trim fit, and the interior mesh drop pockets (for keeping skinning gloves warm/dry). However, the hood is a tight fit and won't fit over any helmet. I'd probably keep just the Ferrosi though. I also own the North Face Nimble jacket, which is another great stretch-woven softshell jacket. I use it around town for fall and spring, day hikes on really cold fall/spring days, as well as mountain biking in colder weather. On descent, I've been caught in a wet snow, rain, hail and thunderstorm in 35 degree weather and it kept me warm enough to get back to the car, even though I was drenched, which is saying A LOT for something so thin (my hands and legs, however, were starting to go numb). One thing I find interesting about softshells, is that even though it might be wet enough for them to get soaked, as long as you're moving and generating your own heat, they'll bake dry really easily. So much so, that it can be a pretty wet snowstorm, and the jacket will mostly be dry, just from your body's heat pushing out the moisture. neck beard05-15-2013, 01:32 AMThanks for your stretch-woven info, lots of it. I almost entirely agree about not needing a shell jacket in winter. If it starts getting nasty, I just put my belay jacket on. However there are some warm snowy humid damp days where the extra insulation is the last thing I need when fat snowflakes are wetting me though my softshell when ascending in a glass-house storm. Sweating on the inside + melting flakes on the outside is not nice. I also start and end my day with my belay jacket on. And I ski in it if I'm cold, or waiting for people to manage terrain/group or sweaty from the hike. So yeah, seldom do I really need a shell. They are expensive and wear out and I think people wear them mostly as a fashion/image item. It is important to look like a pro skier after all. ;) Don't worry about pitzips either. They don't make sense on this kind of a garment (no one has them anyway) No man, I need them and want them. I know the difference. I use them very frequently in winter and spring. Nothing lets cool air breeze across a hot core like pit zips. For me, it is instant aircon to avoid sweating during high exertion when the sun suddenly comes out, or the wind stops etc. This is different to breathability of the overall jacket. Same reason I like huge pockets: to quickly take of hat/gloves and stuff them in [without blowing out the zip ends and small opening zippers]. Different to breathability, it is on the fly temperature management. Narrona has pit zips. Will look at Marmott again. They have a lot. Edit: but no pit zips.... Dane105-15-2013, 02:34 AMWhich material, or brand, provides a softshell which is most of all windproof, then very breathable at the expense of being not very waterproof? "For reference, Polartec Power Shield Pro is 2 CFM, PowerShield is 5 CFM". Numbers are nice, field experience much better imo. I've used all sorts of materials, garments and brands. More than most I suspect doing field testing and reviews of what is currently available. Polartec Power Shield Pro and PowerShield are exceptional fabrics and come in different laminates. So I might find your numbers suspect. I have used one or the other verison for pants the last three winters. Never once in a hard shell pant and was more than satisfied withthe results of the 2 versions of Polartec Power Shield. OP didn't ask for anything more than the best "material, brand" of softshell. From my own perspective, and nothing more than actual field use Polartec Power Shield Pro and PowerShield are exceptional fabrics. Some of th differing Neoshell laminates are very good as well but IMO more a hard shell fabric than a soft shell....although that defination obviously overlaps these days. Lindahl05-15-2013, 03:13 AMI'm sitting here 1 week post-ACL surgery, so I have way too much time on my hands right now. ;) No man, I need them and want them. I know the difference. I use them very frequently in winter and spring. Nothing lets cool air breeze across a hot core like pit zips. For me, it is instant aircon to avoid sweating during high exertion when the sun suddenly comes out, or the wind stops etc. This is different to breathability of the overall jacket. Same reason I like huge pockets: to quickly take of hat/gloves and stuff them in [without blowing out the zip ends and small opening zippers]. Different to breathability, it is on the fly temperature management. If you haven't used a stretch-woven softshell before, then maybe you should try one before making that claim. You'll be surprised. The ONLY, and I mean absolutely ONLY, stretch-woven softshell on the market that has pit-zips is a custom one from BeyondFleece.com. There's a very good reason for that. Norrona softshells, at least the ones I'm familiar with, use Gore Windstopper, which means they aren't breathable, which means they pretty much HAVE to have pit-zips. If you REALLY want pitzips, most seamstresses around here can add them to a jacket for about $25-$40. I've had it done to lightweight alpine climbing hardshells. "For reference, Polartec Power Shield Pro is 2 CFM, PowerShield is 5 CFM". Numbers are nice, field experience much better imo. I've used all sorts of materials, garments and brands. More than most I suspect doing field testing and reviews of what is currently available. Polartec Power Shield Pro and PowerShield are exceptional fabrics and come in different laminates. So I might find your numbers suspect. I have used one or the other verison for pants the last three winters. Never once in a hard shell pant and was more than satisfied withthe results of the 2 versions of Polartec Power Shield. OP didn't ask for anything more than the best "material, brand" of softshell. From my own perspective, and nothing more than actual field use Polartec Power Shield Pro and PowerShield are exceptional fabrics. Some of th differing Neoshell laminates are very good as well but IMO more a hard shell fabric than a soft shell....although that defination obviously overlaps these days. Out of curiousity, what was the most recent stretch-woven uninsulated softshell jacket you've tried, and when did you try it? The numbers come straight from Polartec (and from my less-than-scientific breath test). The PowerShield and PowerShield Pro membranes refers to the size and number of perforations in a completely waterproof/windproof membrane. While face fabrics can slightly alter the overall breathability, the formula for combining CFM is: 1/(1/CFM1 + 1/CFM2) - which means the lowest CFM is pretty close to the resultant CFM. Since such fabrics are ALWAYS bonded to stretch-woven face fabrics, which tend to have pretty identical CFMs across the board (10-15 CFM), then the resultant CFM is usually pretty similar across the board. CFM numbers are useful because you can use them to compare a garment you have NO field experience with, to a garment you DO have field experience with (the same reason why it's useful to know how many g/m^2 of Primaloft One is used in a synthetic insulated garment). As a manufacturer, one of the major plusses of using PowerShield/PowerShield Pro, is that the end result of the garment is a predictable known quantity that the customer can count on. The breath test I mentioned can also give you a good guesstimate of the CFM. 2 CFM is pretty much impossible to breath through. 5 CFM is very hard to breath through. You can breath through 10-15+ CFM, but there is a notable resistance. Once you get to around 30-40 CFM, it's hard to detect any resistance. I have a lot of experience with various fabrics and using the breath test, and correlating that to how it performs in the field. Like I said, I've personally tested around 20 different softshells, and about 8 different windshirts (most were <2 CFM, the Stoic Wraith and Patagonia Houdini were 5 CFM - and are BY FAR the best windshirts on the market, the Stoic being my favorite due to cut, it's 2.1oz weight, breathability, and packing into it's own pocket). Finally, with all due respect, 1) your field experience is almost all as an Alpine Climber, 2) you mention your field experience is only with pants(?). My experience with PowerShield in pants is also positive. They make good cold weather pants, but are not as versatile when it comes to warmer days. On the other hand, I've found stretch-woven pants to work well for both warm and cold days, so I prefer those as a "quiver-of-one". However, if I were given a pair, or found a pair for the right price/fit/color, I'd probably own a pair of PowerShield pants too. When it comes to jackets, however, under most conditions in my field experience, PowerShield is not breathable enough for ski touring (especially in Maritime climates, which tend to be warmer). There is no comparison between those fabrics and stretch-wovens and their utility to a backcountry skier. It IS a good RESORT softshell jacket, however, and is definitely breathable enough for most conditions at the resort. In fact, I'd almost like to own one, just for that reason alone. Paradoxically, I seem to remember reading on your blog about disliking PowerShield for most conditions (specifically Gamma MX) - and that it was too warm? I suppose you could have been referring to a fleece backing, but, my guess is that it was too warm because it doesn't breath very well. neck beard05-15-2013, 04:13 AMIf you haven't used a stretch-woven softshell before, then maybe you should try one before making that claim. You'll be surprised. Perhaps I will be :) But I still differentiate between the benefits of breathable and the benefits of on-the-fly rapid mass-ventilation of unwanted heat and intake of moving cool air, aka, pit zips. The ONLY, and I mean absolutely ONLY, stretch-woven softshell on the market that has pit-zips is a custom one from BeyondFleece.com. There's a very good reason for that. Norrona softshells, at least the ones I'm familiar with, use Gore Windstopper, which means they aren't breathable, which means they pretty much HAVE to have pit-zips. What the industry is prepared to produce, and what I need, generally differ. Most jackets have pockets which sit directly under pack hip belt = dumb. The industry produces junk gloves almost universally. Most stock AT liners suck. etc Per another thread, Norrona uses some Gore windstopper on parts of a garment, but most panels are their own "Flex1". Lindahl05-15-2013, 07:45 AMI should create a gear blog during this down time... haha. I should also note that Schoeller WB-400 is very similar to PowerShield. It also uses a perforated membrane. But I still differentiate between the benefits of breathable and the benefits of on-the-fly rapid mass-ventilation of unwanted heat and intake of moving cool air, aka, pit zips. Eh.. I understand where you're coming from, but the difference is, with stretch-wovens, there isn't a mass trapping of heat and moisture like there is with less breathable types. And thus, venting a stretch-woven jacket doesn't generate a massive cool-off like you think it would. It's the same reason why there aren't pitzips on fleece jackets - it's breathable enough where they wouldn't do much of anything. By the time the pit-zips would actually make a noticable difference, it'd be WAY too warm to be wearing the fleece in the first place. Perhaps you like pit-zips on your fleece jackets though. What the industry is prepared to produce, and what I need, generally differ. Most jackets have pockets which sit directly under pack hip belt = dumb. The industry produces junk gloves almost universally. Most stock AT liners suck. etc They operative word here being 'most'. Not 'all'. There are still jackets with pockets ABOVE hipbelts, gloves that ARE good, and AT liners that DO work, because a few athletes that know what they're doing, do sometimes get their way. I've found it's usually a rotational thing, where manufacturers bounce back and forth between a state of having truly functional and sometimes innovative pieces, and having mostly fashionwear (look at the come-and-ago history of the Patagonia R1 Hoody). Per another thread, Norrona uses some Gore windstopper on parts of a garment, but most panels are their own "Flex1". falketind flex1 Jacket Thanks. Looks like there is one out there. It looks it has both pitzips and massive core-venting zippers, which I actually prefer over just pit-zips - much more effective, based on my experience with hardshells that have them. Kind of like having inner AND outer vents on thighs - it creates a circulation effect. Tricky with pack shoulder straps though. It's funny, the jacket looks to drape very different from most stretch-wovens (possibly because of the Gore Windstopper shoulders/hips/hood). It doesn't look like it flows with your body that well - in the action photos, look at all the hard shadowing. The fabric looks quite stiff and not very flexible. I wonder if it has a membrane also? It's also pretty humerous watching the marketing video. When they're in the city, she alternates scenes between wearing the jacket and not wearing the jacket. Almost as if someone was telling her, ok, now we need to get a shot of you wearing the jacket, so put it on for this shot... rather than her wearing it for practical reasons. neck beard05-15-2013, 08:35 AMFuck dude, you need to rest :) I can't answer all of that. I like pit zips. falketind flex1 Jacket Thanks. Looks like there is one out there. It looks it has both pitzips and massive core-venting zippers, which I actually prefer over just pit-zips - much more effective, based on my experience with hardshells that have them. They are pockets, not core-venting zippers. For core venting and cross flow with my pit zips I use the novel approach of... opening the front zipper ;) Here is a spec list in order of importance. Seems you like a bit of work. I bet you can't solve this: Some type of softshell as discussed High 'turtle' collar (no hood) Very big pockets with wide opening zips mostly free from pack hip belt No insulation at all Pit zips Bright colour Napoleon pocket Two way front zipper A little like this Mammut, but with a napoleon pocket, and perhaps more breathable fabric. I wore the old version of this soft shell for 600+ days. http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetail/101009910_v_3225_M/Ultimate-Advanced-Jacket-Men.html bbense05-15-2013, 09:09 AMWhat do you feel the advantage of the Driclime is, over something like the Houdini? For that sort of garment, I'd rather have the Houdini, personally - packable size/weight being one of the major pros. DriClime has insulation and will wick moisture out. Ripstop just gets clammy. Windbreakers are great, but I think of them more as spring/summer/fall day trip use. But you're kind of comparing apples and oranges. I don't think a more or less old school ripstop windbreaker is in any way a "soft shell". DriClime windshirts aren't really soft shells either. But the term has become meaningless. XXX-er05-15-2013, 09:25 AMI think most people wear too much for touring I did almost all my touring last season in just a couple of windstopper soft shell pieces no base layers nothing but synthetic briefs underneath the puffy comes out for stops or the down I never use hard shells for touring in winter and Lift riding is totaly different Big Steve05-15-2013, 11:11 AMLindahl and XXX-er represent the two theories of cold/cool weather aerobic activity gear. Lindahl advocates layering and high breatheability. XXX-er advocates a single layer with a membrane that regulates vapor transmission (and accompanying heat loss), i.e., next-to-skin semi-VB. Lindahl's method works for those who sweat lightly in dry and low humidity conditions. IME, XXX-er's method works for a wider range of conditions, e.g., humid/cold, dry/cold, raining/cold, wet falling snow, and, if one adds a bit of insulation, very cold temps. I used the layered/high breatheability (L/HB) method for years. It did not work for me in most PNW conditions because, no matter how much I vented, I ended up with at least two damp layers no matter how much I vented, changed clothes, stripped down to one layer, etc., and I also spent too much time putting clothing off and on. Note that I am a sweaty Viking. (OTOH, L/HB system seems to work in many PNW conditions for my SO, who is a very light sweater; nonetheless, she now does most of her midwinter tours in next-to-skin semi-VBs). I started experimenting with alternatives to the L/HB around 15 years ago. I started with full VBs (Stephenson, RBH, DIY). They worked well for very cold temps -- remarkable how light I could dress in sub-O F temps with full VBs -- but they sucked >15F, i.e., most PNW mid-winter tours. So I moved to semi-VBs, and for a long time used the lightest available Windstopper softshells worn next-to-skin, which, it sounds, is XXX-er's preferred method. I still use that system for <20F and I've found nothing that works better for <10F aerobic activities. For <15F (yes, there's some overlap), I now use a lighter somewhat more breatheable next-to-skin piece, the Mountain Hardwear Effusion hoody, an ultralight ePTFE (MH house brand of eVent) -- worn next-to-skin. MH Hardwear does not market it as next-to-skin (at least not in America), but IME that's how it works best for a sweaty Viking like myself. I regulate temps and vent via hood off/on an zipper. When I get to a break or a downhill, I often put a light shell over it. For extended breaks I might put on puff layer over top, although I very seldom need to do that until the end of the day. My semi-VBs work great in a wide range of conditions, including, e.g., constant rain @ 40F, wet falling snow @ high humidity (common PNW conditions), dry/cold, dry/cool, bushwhacking through wet brush, etc. One of the best things about the semi-VB system is that my insulating layers (which I will need for camp or emergency) stay bone dry in my pack. The semi-VB cooks dry in minutes, with or without a breatheable light shell over it. (By contrast, when I used the L/HB system, I always had to deal with 2 damp layers that did not quickly bake dry.) Another advantage is that using semi-VBs will give you a wider temp range for significantly less weight. Why? Because a system that is designed to constantly emit body vapor takes a bunch of body heat along with it. ETA: VBs have been endorsed by people like Yvon Chouinard and Mark Twight for years. Gore and others tried marketing ePTFE next-to-skin semi-VBs a decade or so ago, but, while marketing pieces as next-to-skin semi-VBs worked in Europe, but it didn't catch on in N.A. My theory is that Gore's hugely successful it must breathe or you will surely die a terrible death!!!!!!!! marketing worked so well that people never questioned it, notwithstanding that many of them were stopping to take stuff off, then put it it back on, then take it off, etc., etc. So, back to OP's question: Which softshell material? The answer depends on whether you are using the layering/highly breatheable method or the next-to-skin semi-VB method. The former method works for me only in very limited situations, the latter in all conditions from sub-zero F to c. 50F(dry)/55F(wet). YMMV if you don't sweat much. Lindahl05-15-2013, 11:26 AMThey are pockets, not core-venting zippers. For core venting and cross flow with my pit zips I use the novel approach of... opening the front zipper ;) Sounds great, but that doesn't work with shoulder straps. The air flow can't go underneath them ;) Some type of softshell as discussed High 'turtle' collar (no hood) Very big pockets with wide opening zips mostly free from pack hip belt No insulation at all Pit zips Bright colour Napoleon pocket Two way front zipper Like I said, you won't be able to find that jacket on the market. It doesn't exist. However, you can get VERY close if you have a seamstress add pitzips for you (relatively cheap). Two-way zippers are also VERY hard to find, as they're a pain in the ass to use, unless you need them for a harness. BeyondFleece.com has everything you want, including a custom fit, but they don't have any bright colors. Call and check? The Mammut Tasman jacket is VERY close, but it's a membrane based softshell, unfortunately. Mammut needs to move away from those, at least for part of their product line. The Rab Scimitar is close too, but has a hood. Is the red bright enough? Add pitzips at a seamstress. The seamstress might be able to remove the hood for you and create a turtle collar, as well. The Gamma LT, Mountain Hardwear G50 are close, but add pitzips and don't have a two-way zipper. Honestly, if the jacket is cut correctly (like my Ferrosi), you can get a high turtle-like collar even if it has a hood. Though, I wish more manufacturers did a seperate hood and turtle collar. The Marmot Pro Tour jacket has a great design for this. Unfortunately, it uses PowerShield. Lindahl05-15-2013, 11:39 AMLindahl and XXX-er represent the two theories of cold/cool weather aerobic activity gear. Lindahl advocates layering and high breatheability. XXX-er advocates a single layer with a membrane that regulates vapor transmission (and accompanying heat loss), i.e., next-to-skin semi-VB. Lindahl's method works for those who sweat lightly in dry and low humidity conditions. IME, XXX-er's method works for a wider range of conditions, e.g., humid/cold, dry/cold, raining/cold, wet falling snow, and, if one adds a bit of insulation, very cold temps. I used the layered/high breatheability (L/HB) method for years. It did not work for me in most PNW conditions because, no matter how much I vented, I ended up with at least two damp layers no matter how much I vented, changed clothes, stripped down to one layer, etc., and I also spent too much time putting clothing off and on. Note that I am a sweaty Viking. (OTOH, L/HB system seems to work in many PNW conditions for my SO, who is a very light sweater; nonetheless, she now does most of her midwinter tours in next-to-skin semi-VBs). What was your high breathability layer? I actually don't layer at all. No matter what temperatures I'm in, I only tour in a baselayer and a stretch-woven softshell. I don't have to change layers either. My guess is that you were layering too heavily - if you're sweating, you're wearing too much. The idea is that you need to dress for being comfortably cold when active - and actually being uncomfortably cold when you first leave your car (you'll warm up in about 30 minutes). Cool/cold muscles work more efficiently - you also drink less water (which means carrying less water). Usually when I leave the trailhead, I have my softshell on to avoid being uncomfortably cold. After about 30 minutes, I'm warmed up and I take it off. As soon as I hit treeline, the softshell goes on again. If it's a warm, calm sunny day, I might not put the softshell on until descent, and I'll take it off on descent at about treeline. That's the only uphill layering I do all day - adding/removing my softshell jacket once or twice the entire day. I stay comfortably cold, don't sweat, and drink very little water. For me, just by choosing my baselayer correctly at the beginning of the day, this system works on sunny summer days, in sleet/rain, in wet falling snow, and at very cold winter temperatures (i.e. blizzard an -10F). When touring in a blizzard at -10F, I was wearing only a Powerstretch baselayer and the Tempo hoody. I look at the forecast for the day, and choose based on a point-forecast of the day's high for the trailhead location. A Cap 4 works well starting around 10 degrees, and stopping around 32 degrees. A Cap 2 works well starting at around 32 degrees and stopping around 45 degrees. A stretch Cap 1 works starting at around 45 degrees. If I get it wrong, I'm usually still pretty comfortable during the day - these are just ideals. Really sunny days, of course, requires a little less. Lindahl05-15-2013, 11:54 AMDriClime has insulation and will wick moisture out. Ripstop just gets clammy. Windbreakers are great, but I think of them more as spring/summer/fall day trip use. But you're kind of comparing apples and oranges. I don't think a more or less old school ripstop windbreaker is in any way a "soft shell". DriClime windshirts aren't really soft shells either. But the term has become meaningless. I've never had a windshell feel clammy. At least not a breathable one. Are you not wearing a baselayer? The baselayer should be doing any wicking. Big Steve05-15-2013, 12:42 PMWhat was your high breathability layer? Several. I was on the leading edge of softshells. I started with the original softshell, Cloudveil (Schoeller) in the lightest weight and also in the middle weight. The lightest weight was very breatheable. Breatheability was not the problem. My propensity to sweat and the loss of heat with the wicking sweat was the problem. I actually don't layer at all. . . . .I only tour in a baselayer and a stretch-woven softshell.Huh? Baselayer + softshell = 2 layers. You do indeed layer. . . . if you're sweating, you're wearing too much.No. If I'm sweating I'm me. I always sweat. See above. Sounds like you are a light sweater. And you live in a dry place. So I'm not surprised your system works for you where you live. Lots of systems work for light sweaters in dry places. But I'm dealing with Cascades weather, which is tricky. Have you tried next-to-skin semi-VBs? Very few have (and most I know who have tried it switched to it). I said Dri-Clime windshirt because I think everybody should own one.I bought one years ago but stopped using it after a few uses because it quickly got drench in sweat, even at 10F. Again, it's a great piece for light to moderate sweaters in dry places. But wicking strategy fails when the ambient air already contains lots of moisture, e.g., sweat doesn't wick and evaporate in fog (100% humidity). And when sweat does wick and evaporate, body heat is lost. If I had to pick one piece "every [ski tourist] should own," it would be a lightweight next-to-skin semi-VB top. PNWbrit05-15-2013, 01:31 PMIf I had to pick one piece "every [ski tourist] should own," it would be a lightweight next-to-skin semi-VB top. Recommendations? Big Steve05-15-2013, 02:22 PMRecommendations?MH Effusion Hooded Jacket. (Be sure to get the hoody cuz the non-hoody has knit panels that defeat the function). Wear it next-to-skin. Wear a puffy or shell over it until just before you start your tour/hike/climb, then strip down to just the Effusion hoody immediately before you start moving. If the temp is <25F, you may feel chilly when you start, but you'll soon get up to temperature. Regulate temp/sweat rate via zipper and hood off/on. When you stop for a break, put the hood up and zip up. If you are still chilly, put on a hat or shell. Best that the shell is very breatheable (e.g., Neoshell, eVent) to allow the Effusion hoody to bake dry. If it's really cold, you can put a puffy over the shell at a break. If it's rainy and cold, you might experiment with a fleece in between the hoody and shell during breaks only. Strip down to the hoody only (or, perhaps, add a hat for a few minutes until you warm up) immediately before you start touring again. Experiment and figure what works for you. Hood up, hood down, with hat, without hat, zipper up, zipper down, combinations of the foregoing. My current choice of hat is a light Superwool skull cap. YMMV This system works for me for skinning/hiking/climbing from 5F (fully zipped, hood up, w/hat) to 45F (hood down, zipper open to chest) so long as I'm moving. The system plus shell works for me for skiing downhill for same temperature range. The balance of your clothing (e.g. puff) stays in your pack bone dry, in reserve in the unlikely event you get chilled or want to take a long lunch break. The Effusion hoody is super thin and light. Some people like something a bit warmer, e.g., thinnest Windstopper fleece worn next-to-skin, for colder temps, but the Effusion is the piece to get if you want to start experimenting this time of year. Unfortunately, MH stopped making the Transition hoody, very thin Windstopper fabric but warmer than the Effusion for mid-winter trips. That's usually my choice for a cold mid-winter tour, e.g., Diamond Head/Windy Knob via Tronsen. Fortunately, I bought a spare Transition hoody on sale after it was discontinued. If you can find one, avoid the non-hoody "Power," which has knit panels, rendering it worthless for next-to-skin use. A few others on here (e.g., XXX-er) have tried next-to-skin semi-VBs. Maybe they can chime in with recommended pieces per their experimentation. Arno05-15-2013, 02:42 PMI've been touring (uphill) in a Patagonia Houdini shell with a very lightweight mesh cycling baselayer underneath - mainly because the Houdini gets clammy next to the skin. Has worked really well and it make such a difference to having wet layers. I sweat a lot so if soaking baselayers aren't an issue for you, maybe no need to change Lindahl05-15-2013, 02:47 PMHuh? Baselayer + softshell = 2 layers. You do indeed layer. When I think of layering, I think of the hassle of manipulating multiple layers to suit the temperature - something that people have to do with hardshells. Adding a layer once, or removing it once, I don't really consider active layering. In other words, the hassle you mentioned earlier: "I also spent too much time putting clothing off and on" No. If I'm sweating I'm me. I always sweat. See above. Sounds like you are a light sweater. And you live in a dry place. So I'm not surprised your system works for you where you live. Lots of systems work for light sweaters in dry places. But I'm dealing with Cascades weather, which is tricky. Have you tried next-to-skin semi-VBs? Very few have (and most I know who have tried it switched to it). I bought one years ago but stopped using it after a few uses because it quickly got drench in sweat, even at 10F. Again, it's a great piece for light to moderate sweaters in dry places. But wicking strategy fails when the ambient air already contains lots of moisture, e.g., sweat doesn't wick and evaporate in fog (100% humidity). And when sweat does wick and evaporate, body heat is lost. If I had to pick one piece "every [ski tourist] should own," it would be a lightweight next-to-skin semi-VB top. Odd... I've never met anyone that had such sweating problems before (profusingly, simply from the act of doing any activity, even when cold). I haven't tried any semi-VBs. I have no interest, either, as I prefer to exercise on the cold end and be dry. VBs work by allowing a persistent level of moisture exist in your microclimate - once that level is hit, your body control's its sweating, so that the moisture level stays more or less the same. I like the idea of it, and know the feeling, but having tried true VBs, I prefer being cold and dry when I exercise. Note: I do use VBs on my hands in really cold temperatures. It's the only thing that works sometimes. I'd like to try some VB socks, as well. I do tour in the PNW on occassion (when visiting my parents in Seattle), so it's not just an environment/climate/humidity thing for me. I can definitely see using semi-VBs in 100% humidity (fog/mist), however. You're in a constant state of wet in that sort of condition. But for most other weather in the PNW, I'd pass. Oh, one last question, what's the difference between a semi-VB and a 3L hardshell? It seems they're interchangeable from the description of the fabrics/membranes - except maybe the face fabric is a stretch-woven material. I'm assuming the difference is only in how you use it - next to skin? Big Steve05-15-2013, 03:50 PM. . . I prefer being cold and dry when I exercise.But what if it's wet and/or humid weather? Stay home and watch Oprah? Oh, one last question, what's the difference between a semi-VB and a 3L hardshell? It seems they're interchangeable from the description of the fabrics/membranes - except maybe the face fabric is a stretch-woven material.The difference is fit and stretch, both of which are critical. Semi-VBs (and full VBs) work only if they hug the skin. Lindahl05-15-2013, 03:59 PMBut what if it's wet and/or humid weather? Stay home and watch Oprah? You can still go out. My system works fine for me in almost all wet/humid weather - obviously thats not the case for you. I'd rather be as comfortable as possible in 95% of all tours, and uncomfortable for the other 5%, than somewhat uncomfortable for 100% of my tours. Even in the PNW, few days are at the extreme end of wet/humid. Probably the same reason why most here don't use 80s-90s as a one-ski quiver. Optimize for the more enjoyable/common. Big Steve05-15-2013, 05:45 PMI prefer to be comfortable on 100% of tours neck beard05-15-2013, 06:07 PMI don't sweat very much, however in high exertion touring - trail breaking in deep powder and mild temps, I understand what Big Steve likes. Though I prefer to have one very very thin layer between my skin and wind shit/soft shell. Normal base layer material is too thick. Kindahl (as in the online book ;) ) - unfortunately I cant get pit zips added so easily due to geography and the fact that I am fussy about what zip is used. Lets drop the pit zips and two-way zipper (which I use a lot without a harness. I didn't think I did until I wore a jacket with a one-way then it really annoyed me. Worse is trying to get under three jackets all with one way zippers). What about: no hood no insulation at all REALLY BIG POCKETS with unobstructed zipper Napolean pocket Bright color The Arcteryx Venta has nice big pockets, as an example of what I mean. The drop-hood is a great idea as well. Pity about the insulation http://images.arcteryx.com/S13/450x500/Venta-SV-Jacket-Yippee-Cayenne.png hoarhey05-15-2013, 07:09 PMYou want bright colors? This is SAR orange from Beyond Fleece circa 2009 pitzips added removable hood. Schoeller WB-400 has a laminate layer for wind and water resistance... Not so good under a shell and quite warm I almost passed out attempting Lindahl's breath-through test Not the most flattering photo, but here you have it...(eastern sierra May 2010) http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t73/8powder8/Sierra%20May%201%20and%202/Sept2009128.jpg Lindahl05-15-2013, 08:44 PMI prefer to be comfortable on 100% of tours Well, a semi-VB definitely wouldn't do that for me. I find them moderately uncomfortable, except in really cold temperatures. ;) What about: no hood no insulation at all REALLY BIG POCKETS with unobstructed zipper Napolean pocket Bright color The Marmot Tempo Jacket (not the Hoody version) hits all those features. The pockets are a bit smaller than the Venta, but they're bigger than most (say, 90%) of the jackets I've seen. XXX-er05-15-2013, 09:54 PMFor next -to skin I used a patagonia ascentionist soft shell till it unglued itself and this year a cheap O2 windstopper from MEC, i tried the next-to-skin thing pretty much because I read what steve had wrote about the subject I didn't / don't have much of a plan I just don't use baselayers unless I need them and really the only time I needed a base layer this season was when I got cold skiing an all night event but I took that base layer off again in the AM it usually suprises the hell out of people when they notice I am not wearing any base layers but nobody is willing to try no base layer , its not like someone is trying to give you coolaid or have you suck a cock just wear less AND if it doesnt work ... you can put that base layer back on Lindahl05-15-2013, 10:08 PMI've also heard of good results with the mesh/fishment baselayers mentioned earlier. Bryjnie or something like that makes a few fishnets. neck beard05-15-2013, 10:46 PMThe Marmot Tempo Jacket (not the Hoody version) hits all those features. The pockets are a bit smaller than the Venta, but they're bigger than most (say, 90%) of the jackets I've seen. It is a nice looking jacket, but those pocket openings are way too low relative to hip belt, and too small. The Arcteryx Venta pocket is the good stuff. Or the Norrona Falkitend Flex1. Hoarhey - I'd cook in a black helmet and goggles in may! Beyond Fleece have good styles at a glance, but colors are way to drab for easy vis in a storm. Lindahl05-16-2013, 03:15 AMIt is a nice looking jacket, but those pocket openings are way too low relative to hip belt, and too small. The Arcteryx Venta pocket is the good stuff. Or the Norrona Falkitend Flex1. Ahh, you're right. I was going off memory. The Tempo Hoody has the pockets you want (the design is different on the jacket). I've lost interest in looking for you.. haha... good luck! You are one picky dude! Funny how a lot of makers drop the Napoleon pocket on their jacket version, but have it on their Hoody version. I've also noticed that Hoodys are often designed for athletes, whereas the jacket versions are designed as around-town pieces. Honestly, as picky as you are, the best thing to do is just get a BeyondFleece item - but alas, no bright colors... I'd call them and ask? I agree with you, that it's woefully sad that most designers put pockets on technical pieces right under the hipbelt. Oceanic05-16-2013, 03:28 AMI've also heard of good results with the mesh/fishment baselayers mentioned earlier. Bryjnie or something like that makes a few fishnets. Brynje (http://www.nordiclifeuk.co.uk/index.php/products/mens-active-base-layers) I love my Brynje Long Johns, but I'm not brave enough to be seen in public in their shirts. neck beard05-16-2013, 04:43 AMHonestly, as picky as you are Quitter! Surrender Monkey. Anyway, I need to be picky as what ever I buy, I'll wear for 30% of the days in a year, for the next 4 years. The stuff is more than clothing, it is part of my work/tool kit... and pocket size/placement really matters when it is daily life :) So I need to research well before deciding which brand I'm going to sponsor. bbense05-17-2013, 11:33 AMI've never had a windshell feel clammy. At least not a breathable one. Are you not wearing a baselayer? The baselayer should be doing any wicking. Generally, my "base layer" is a synth or wool T-shirt. I run very hot and pretty much the only garment I've never felt clammy in is this. http://www.reliableracing.com/images/lg/01102.jpg bbense05-17-2013, 11:39 AMQuitter! Surrender Monkey. Anyway, I need to be picky as what ever I buy, I'll wear for 30% of the days in a year, for the next 4 years. The stuff is more than clothing, it is part of my work/tool kit... and pocket size/placement really matters when it is daily life :) So I need to research well before deciding which brand I'm going to sponsor. You might poke around the WestComb site and see if there's anything interesting. They all have hoods though, but otherwise most of their stuff is really well thought out and of high quality. It ain't cheap though. Even on sale. I was going to recommend the hybrid eVent/schoeller WestComb jacket I have, but I think they don't make it any more. bbense05-17-2013, 06:45 PMNo. If I'm sweating I'm me. I always sweat. . Sounds familiar, most Sierra days I'm skinning in just a t-shirt and I'm still steaming. The only way I could wear less would be to go naked. For me the Dri-clime shirt is mostly for descending and lift served skiing. I think I use it like most people use a fleece jacket, which I always thought was largely useless. Too warm for moving and not windproof enough for stopping. I can see how the VB approach would work to keep your outer layers drier and more effective insulators, but does it really help if that's your only layer? Worth a try I guess. neck beard05-17-2013, 09:24 PMHi BB, I looked at Westcomb... and didn't feel very inspired. It is becoming a little hard to avoid hooded 'softshells' these days. In big storms I usually have my hard shell over my softshell all day for hiking and then put my belay jacket on over the top for descent, and sometimes even slow group climbs when the trail is already broken. Three hoods would be a pita. I could opt to not use a shell - I frequently never even wear one, but I like the intermediate step in the layering system that it offers. I could get in insulated shell, but I need thicker emergency overnight insulation. And a light insulated shell isn't enough bbense05-17-2013, 10:07 PMHi BB, I looked at Westcomb... and didn't feel very inspired. It is becoming a little hard to avoid hooded 'softshells' these days. In big storms I usually have my hard shell over my softshell all day for hiking and then put my belay jacket on over the top for descent, and sometimes even slow group climbs when the trail is already broken. I've found that a hood is essential for a soft shell. It greatly extends the weather in which you can use it. In anything short of a rain storm for day skiing, I use a soft shell. Before I discovered eVent, I had completely given up on hard shells as anything but rain gear. While soft shells don't exactly keep you dry in a snow storm, they do keep you comfortable. The WestComb Skeena Jacket I have I really like a lot, that jacket and a puffy are all I need unless it's raining. http://www.campsaver.com/skeena-hoody-men-s I think it's no longer made, ( or no longer made the same ), so get it while you can. Arcteryx makes something similar I think, but I won't buy anything but eVent these days. Goretex has stolen far too much of my money over the last 30 years for me to ever believe that finally this time they made a membrane that is actually breathable. Lindahl05-17-2013, 11:37 PMI've found that a hood is essential for a soft shell. It greatly extends the weather in which you can use it. In anything short of a rain storm for day skiing, I use a soft shell. Same here on both accounts. I don't bring a hardshell at all, ever, except when having to deal with heavy rain/sleet at lower elevations on big climb days (moderate rain/sleet has been fine). I don't BC ski if it's going to be rain/sleet on my target line - maybe at the resort a little. The hood is really nice to have when hitting treeline in a storm. I've been in some really nasty storms with a softshell on, and never wished it was a hardshell, ever. Before I discovered eVent, I had completely given up on hard shells as anything but rain gear. While soft shells don't exactly keep you dry in a snow storm, they do keep you comfortable. Maybe there should be a clarification here - softshells will keep YOU dry in a snow storm, but the exterior of your softshell will be a little damp (not wet). Your body heat pushes the the moisture away to the exterior pretty easily. neck beard05-18-2013, 03:09 AMHoods... I'm a poor guy when it comes to consumer items and ski fashion. I don't have a seasonal ski wardrobe of $300-$600 items. At those prices I have one of everything. I have one soft shell for Nov-May. Sure, you can get gear on discount, but what is the point if it doesn't do what I need it to do, and then I suffer it for years? Paying full price for full functional benefit is my preference. In spring the hood is a hassle when it is warmer. Plus turtle neck designs offer great sun protection that a hood does not unless you zip it right up - which is often undesirable and always uncomfortable for me, especially when sunny and warmer. Also, multiple hoods are a hassle. I tour, using skins, about 120 day a year and on many days a hardshell over the softshell is a comfortable middle step before more bulky insulation goes on. Two hoods is a hassle, three is worse. I'd love to have no hard shell, but a thin light shell adds a lot of comfort when needed. Waterproof is not needed, just a little extra boost to the softshell. But my biggest dislike of hoods is that they create an uncomfortable bunch below the chin when zipped up, yet provide very little warmth. And if you unzip it a few inches to get rid of the neck/chin jab, the top of the jacket hangs open and lets snow and wind in. The hoodless turtle neck designs are incredibly comfortable and functional whether zipped up, or slightly open. That is why the 'drop hood' on the Arcteryx Venta is so nice. Best of both worlds in comfort terms. If I could use that jacket and a second warmer weather jacket, and ditch the hard shell, then I'd love to have that type of hood to extend the functionality. My clothes in the snow are not clothes, they are wearable tools and a functional work environment. A wearable office. I wear the same softshell so often, every single day for months from 6am to 5pm, and require it to be so comfortable and functional, that I pretty much have it worked out, at least what works for me. I'm pretty comfortable in my opinions. Biggum05-18-2013, 10:03 PMThe information here is almost as good as a book.:yourock::yourock: You guys are so technical around here. :yourock::yourock: I'm going for SAGA.:) I can't tell the difference between all these fabrics. :o You guys must have special sensors built into your skin.:dork::explosive: :party::mummy::wookie::mummy::party: I've seen black diamonds!05-19-2013, 03:29 PMI run hot and don't sweat much. I typically skin in a base layer with no hat or gloves. I use a Houdini when it's not that cold, but quite windy. I use a Driclime vest when it's cold (10-15˚ or less). I use a Patagonia Ascensionist when it's very cold and windy, and I'll usually wear some uninsulated gloves as well. It's rarely cold enough for me to skin in the Ascensionist. The Houdini and vest are fairly interchangeable and if I had to choose one it would be the Houdini, but their both comfortable in a wide range a temps. For short skinning laps I just leave on whatever shell or soft shell I'me wearing. I'll sweat a bit, but dry out quick on the way down. Big Steve05-20-2013, 10:32 AM. . . softshells will keep YOU dry in a snow storm, but the exterior of your softshell will be a little damp (not wet). Your body heat pushes the the moisture away to the exterior pretty easily.These statements are true for dry cold snow. But both statements are untrue for wet falling snow in temps near or above freezing point, which can quickly wet out a softshell. Once the softshell is wetted out, it's gonna stay wetted out so long as the ambient air is moist. Oh, one more thing: wetted out softshells don't breathe worth shit. Lindahl05-20-2013, 02:45 PMThese statements are true for dry cold snow. But both statements are untrue for wet falling snow in temps near or above freezing point, which can quickly wet out a softshell. Once the softshell is wetted out, it's gonna stay wetted out so long as the ambient air is moist. Oh, one more thing: wetted out softshells don't breathe worth shit. I disagree. I'm not sure which softshells you've tried, but for the softshells that I own, they work perfectly fine in wet falling snow (in any temperature, above or below freezing), both out here, and during a few random trips I've done in the PNW. They don't wet out as long as you're producing heat. And yes, we do get wet snow. Some of our spring storms out here are just as wet as the stuff I've run into, growing up in the PNW. Based on your comments, it sounds like you've only tried membrane softshells or nylon windbreakers (not breathable stretch-wovens). Both of those do wet out. The membranes stop breathing when they wet out (windbreakers don't). Big Steve05-20-2013, 04:22 PMBased on your comments, it sounds like you've only tried membrane softshells or nylon windbreakers (not breathable stretch-wovens). Both of those do wet out.Incorrect. I have hundreds of days of mountain travel in highly breatheable woven softshells. See above. I was an early softshell adopter per Cloudveil/Schoeller Cloth. The notion that body heat can "push out" all of the moisture in a wetted out softshell is truly bizarre. And, yes, a wetted out softshell does not breathe as well as a dry woven softshell. Duh. It's obvious that you have a religious fervor for woven softshells, but that aint gonna change the laws of physics. I'll say it again: woven softshells are fine for dry weather and people who don't sweat much, i.e., you on your tours. I don't BC ski if it's going to be rain/sleet on my target line. . . Well, there ya go. You're a fair weather tourist. If rain/sleet is gonna stop ya, you'll be sitting out lots of PNW tours. Lindahl05-20-2013, 04:56 PMWell, there ya go. You're a fair weather tourist. If rain/sleet is gonna stop ya, you'll be sitting out lots of PNW tours. You never said anything about sleet/rain all day. You said wet snow. Very different experiences/conditions. We don't really get heavy rain/sleet here unless you like skiing permafrozen corn. Lucky us! Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2014 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.